simple lager recipe for tomorrow's brew (using mostly ingredients leftover from last week's brew "your father's mustache". input appreciated.

i aiming for a simple but classic lager that lets a bit of the malt bleed through and also highlights the yeast profile (1st time with s-34/70)...my question is, do the domestic 2 & 6-row malts have enough character on their own or should i be adding some % of other malt (i.e. german pilsner)? again, i have the below ingredients so i'm inclined to use them if possible, just haven't brewed very many lagers so i thought i'd run it by the biggest bunch of smart asses i know. fire away.

5 gal. recipe

8 lbs. 6-Row
3 lbs. 2-Row
*single infusion at 150-152F, batch sparge
*thinking of doing a 1 gal. boil down with 1st runnings to boost malt flavor (opinions?)

1 oz. cluster (pellet) @ 60
.25 oz. styrian goldings (pellet) @ 15
.25 oz. styrian goldings (pellet) @ 0
*same hop schedule as classic american pilsner

S-34/70 weihenstaphan (2 packets)

12 days @ 48-50F
2 days @ 58F
7 weeks @ 33F
*leave in primary for duration

I'm partial to boil downs and I like the profile they give so I would say you are alright as is. Looks good to me.

I think the grain bill is fine (I never use 6-row though), but it would greatly benifit from a decoction mash.

I'd say it _might_ benefit from a double or triple decoction, but that's not a given.

I know I keep saying this but... If you've never tried a boil-down in place of a decoction, try it. Much easier and I feel it gives the same results.

+1 Jason!

What do you do for a boil down? Take a gallon and boil down to 32 or 16 ounces?

Good to know about the boil down, I haven't done it yet. Is it more likely to add malt flavor than would decoction?

I believe does add more malt flavor, especially in recipes where the crystal and specialty grains are low.

When I do a boil-down on a 5 gallon batch I take the very first gallon of run off (without doing a vorlauf) and boil it down in a separate pot. I keep it over high heat until the you start and see bubbles stack up on themselves (sign that most, if not all the water is gone). This usually takes between 30-45 minutes. I then cover the pot and keep it on low heat until the main boil is done, then add the syrup back to the main batch.

If I do a 10 gallon batch I usually pull off the first 2 gallons and do a gallon in each of two pots. I usually just do this on my stove. The wort is already at 170ish and I can get a gallon to a boil in just a few minutes. Once the threat of boil over is gone I can leave it to boil while just checking on it every 10 minutes or so and I can attend to the main boil.

Why without the vorlauf? You want some grain in there?

multi-step infusion mash and decoction are only different for the fact that with decoction you're boiling and returning back into the mash for the higher temp raise, am I correct, or am I way off?

Yes a little bit. I'm not talking about a huge amount of grain but I think its necessary to have some material. Use your best judgment.

edit: If you are trying to replicate a decoction, if you just want to experiment then run it clear...

drummer,

Yes, although in a decoction you are taking a thick portion of the mash (i.e. lots of grain and little liquid) in order to raise temperature. This was used primarily to help break down the flinty ends of undermodified malts and allowed a certain precision of temp control at a time when there were no thermometers. This also allowed for small level of maillard reaction in the decocted mass.

I wouldn't say that the boildown produces "maltier" flavors exactly....it kinda concentrates the malt flavor, but it adds a sweetness which is not necessarily malty. It's a really good flavor enhancement technique, though.

Well put. That's a much better description.

Ima try it. My next batch is a lager.

drummer,
boil-down or decoction?

decoction.

kidding....doing boil-down.

Good, I was just going to give you some warning if attempting a decoction...

Hey DP,

Just out of curiosity...if you're keeping in primary the whole time and cold, why do the 2 day @ 58 instead of dropping to 33 after 14 days?

Diacytel rest...

I was under the impression that DR isn't necessarily a needed if it stays cold. Actually a few brewers told me that it's not really anything to worry about 'these days'.

I'm learning..

im doing my 1st lager tomrrow with that S-34/70 weihenstaphan yeast

heres my recipe

6 lb organic munich
3.6 lb - pilsner
0.6 lb vienna

0.6 oz - perle - 60min
0.25 oz - perle - 20 min

any thoughts or suggestions

sorry to hijack the thread

Drummer, I skip the D-rest and have never detected diacytel. I've used at least 4 different lager yeast with no problem. I'm thinking a few might be a problem, for me just never came a cross that yeast.

Looks good, Mitch. Remember to pitch big and pitch cold.

Drummer, it's not so much if you ferment cold that you won't need a d rest. In fact, it's possible that the colder you ferment, the more you might need one. Diacetyl is a naturally formed by product of fermentation. The yeast will clean it up eventually. The colder you ferment, the slower the yeast work and the more chance that you might need a d rest. What AZ and most of us do is use a long (like 4 weeks or so) primary, which gives the yeast time to finish its work of cleaning up the d. If you ferment for a shorter period, like most commercial breweries, you can raise the temp after primary to make the yeast more active to clean up the diacetyl. And like he says, some yeasts are less prone to it than others. I usually use WY206, which is a great all around lager yeast and doesn't have a tendency to throw d. My SOP is to take a gravity reading after maybe 4 weeks. If I taste d, then I warm it up foir a couple days or so for a d rest. If I don't taste it, I xfer to secondary (usually a keg) and cold crash for lagering around 35F.

thanks denny

i may have to delay my pitch ... to allow the fridge to cool all the wort ... my wort chiller and prechiller wont get the wort that cold ... the ground waters too warm

how long should i wait if i set the fridge at 48 ??


i tried to listen to your decoction show on the BN today at work and got interrupted ....

I'd go overnight if you can. If you can get it down to 70ish then stash it in the fridge overnight sealed up then you should be good. I've done it this way a few times with no problem...

drummer,
as i understand it if you aim for a d-rest toward the end of primary after it has stopped being produced but while the yeast is still relatively active (i think it's 80% attenuation) that it will clean itself up much quicker which could cut down the total time by a couple weeks (insert disagreement here). the risk is doing the d-rest too soon, which i did last time and it created a d-bomb that totally f'd up all 10 gallons, is that it may go the other way. now i know what diacetyl takes like (i can check another one off my list, eh?).

i have also just done what denny described and had no detectable levels after 2 months of combined primary & lagering on the yeast cake.

mitch,
you should drop your wort and yeast a couple degrees below target fermentation temp before pitching (~46-48F). someone also recommended when proofing dry lager yeast, start proof in warm water then set in fridge until cool, so it doesn't shock in the cold wort when you pitch it. i had not heard this before, but it makes sense.

is this common practice with anyone else?

Understood...thanks guys!!

DP,

Interesting about the dry yeast...

I don't usually proof, I just sprinkle it on top of the chiiled wort.

Jason F,

when you do a boil down with a gallon of wort, about what volume do you get after the boil down is done?

Second question for you. What styles of beer do you use a boil down with?

With a gallon of starting wort, I usually end up with between 16 and 24oz of finished syrup. A lot of this depends on the gravity of the starting liquid. More has to do with the fact that all the water has been removed and the temp is raising beyond 212*. I've done quite a bit of candy making over the years and I can tell it by sight (when the bubbles stack up on themselves...), but it also can be monitored with a thermometer. The reason I cover it and leave it simmering after that is to get as much maillard as possible (and maybe some caramelization) to build as much flavor as I can. I use a technique similar to making candi sugar...

This is relatively new to me (within the past year) and I've been using this technique with almost everything to gather information. I can tell you that the simpler the grain bill the more noticeable the effects. With a grain bill that contains a large amount of crystals or specialty grains you would be less likely to notice the effects. I would say that anything that has been historically brewed via decoction would be a good a good candidate, but I would also say that you would need to favor on the side of less speciality grains in your makeup.

For example. I am going to try a Continental Pils within the next few weeks that relies on nothing but Pils Malt and a boil down instead of cara or crystal malts to make up the body.

Examples: (just off the top of my head)

A Vienna lager with all Vienna malt
An Oktoberfest with all Munich
A Schwartzbier with just Munich and Carafa
etc...etc...

Jason,
Mainly I proof dry yeast so they can rehydrate (via simple diffusion) in pure H2o where it's less competitive than it is to rehydrate once they are in wort, where they are competing for H2o with sugars, etc. (higher the gravity the harder it is). In theory this is a healthier way to rehydrate dry yeast, it can reduce lag times (more noticeable with ale yeast), and if nothing else you know almost immediately if your yeast is viable.

I'm sold on your boil down technique, I'll try it tomorrow morning.

Thanks for everyone's input.

DP

I wasn't able to brew this weekend, but I will be doing it this coming weekend. Since the tap water is too warm to get it down...what do you think about get it down to tap temp, putting the wort in primary, then stick it in the fridge overnight to cool down to the 50's, then pitch the next day?

Sounds like a plan to me...

Okay..after one week of fermenting at 56, my lager activity has all but slowed down and the krausen has stopped/settled as well. I did a gravity reading and it has dropped down to 1010 (making it 4.3%). If it doesn't change in 2 days, I'm cold crashing because I tasted not once ounce of diacetyl. I'm getting ready to cold crash that biatch. The sample tasted mighty fine. That makes me happier than a puppy with 2 peters. I have no good bottles, so I'm about to drink a dogfish head 60. I'm not rushing it...but I have a feeling there may be a tapping being done next weekend (which ironically is my daughter's 10th birthday party).

Sounds good drummer, if you want to torture yourself you can let it clear in primary a week or more then keg and let sit until clear.

Yeah...I'm thinking that's what I'm going to do. Crash it and just let it sit until it clears, whether than be 1 week or 2 weeks.